Nice Guys & the Friend Zone with Mae Ling

Mae Ling returns to the Do You Feel Heard podcast, and Ian asks her about her latest chapter. After years as a professional dominatrix, she now works as a dating coach who helps submissive and "nice guy" men find and build relationships with dominant women. The conversation covers much more than dating: it's about curiosity, self-worth, boundaries and why we so often get stuck in the friend zone.

What "kinky" really means

Ian starts by clearing up some loaded words. Mae Ling explains that "kinky" simply describes liking things outside the norm, and that it sits on a spectrum. What someone finds intense depends on where they fall along it, and the media usually shows only the most extreme version. Ian adds that a kink can be as ordinary as a preference, such as always wanting the lights on. It doesn't have to be extreme, and it doesn't have to be sexual. It's about the closeness and depth someone looks for with another person.

Curiosity changes the conversation

Something Mae Ling values in the kink community is that people don't assume a word means the same thing to everyone. They ask: What does a yes look like? Where is the no? What do you mean by that? She suggests that everyone could take this into everyday relationships. When someone says "I want to feel loved," the useful follow-up is "What does love feel like to you?"

Ian agrees that this is where their work overlaps. If we hear a word and assume it means what it means to us, we can spend years giving someone what we would want while the other person never feels it. That is how long-term couples end up in trouble: one partner has been asking for something for years, and the other has been working hard to give them something else.

Clear requests, not demands

Mae Ling says she found her own confidence when she got in touch with what she wanted and learned to say it out loud as an open invitation, not a demand: "Hey, I would like this." People often respond well, because it doesn't push against their boundaries and they want to support you. Ian adds a note of nuance: not everyone feels safe asking for what they want, for many different reasons.

Her 12-week program

Mae Ling launched her program a few months before the recording. She says it has grown quickly, and she is hiring help with admin and messages while still doing the coaching herself. The program's core pillars are:

1. Mindset and confidence. "You're not going to go off and do anything if you don't have the correct mindset."
2. Boundaries and communication. Many of her clients fall hard at the start of a relationship, give everything, and burn out. Setting guardrails early keeps it sustainable.
3. Knowing where to look. She compares it to wanting vegetables but only shopping at the deli. Ian shares a friend's advice that fits the same idea: if you want a partner who loves yoga, go to a yoga studio, not a bar. Get clear on what you want, then put yourself where those people are, and make genuine connections without being a creep about it.
4. Reading people without stereotyping. Not judging a book by its cover. A woman in a power suit may not be dominant, and the quiet person in the corner who is watching everything might be.
5. Flirting and the friend zone. Teaching clients to move things toward a clear yes or no instead of staying "so nice" for years.

Why the friend zone happens

Mae Ling's view is that the "nice guy" who will do anything for you and has no boundaries often gets kept around, not chosen. Ian adds that it may now be more common than ever, since so much communication is digital and there are so many relationships to juggle that people land in the friend zone without anyone intending it.

Both agree that it comes back to self-worth. Staying in the friend zone for years often means believing you're not worthy of the relationship you actually want, and the first conversation to have is the one with yourself: Am I expressing what I truly feel, or avoiding something deeper? Ian describes how this fits with the structure of his own work: you need a foundation of knowing who you are and what you need before you can communicate it to anyone else. He adds that if you've never asked for what you need in a clear, consent-based way, you can't know whether the answer would have been yes.

Worthy works both ways

Mae Ling reminds listeners that worth goes in both directions. If you aren't aligned with someone, or the other person is never pleased no matter what you do, it's worth asking whether the relationship deserves your time and effort. In her words: "worthy works both ways." Ian notes that low self-worth shows up early in his own clients' communication patterns and attachment styles.

Boxes, labels and belonging

Mae Ling, who was born in the US to parents who came from Asia, talks about feeling like she belonged nowhere. She was never "American" enough or "Vietnamese" enough to fit either label. She asks why we work so hard for labels at all, since they mostly help our brains sort people quickly, and why we can't simply exist.

Ian picks up the theme of "boxes": we put people in boxes to make sense of them quickly, but no two people fit in the same one. If someone says they're neither a dog person nor a cat person, you're pushed to be curious and ask more, which is where intimacy begins. Mae Ling applies the same idea to conflict: instead of one person's box winning, pause and talk, and you'll often find a third option where both people feel like they're winning.

Self-sacrifice is a ticking time bomb

Ian describes how everyone has a "cup" of needs that must be filled. If you spend years not getting yours met, it will surface sooner or later, even if you don't know what's missing, especially if you've never had it. The answer is learning to name your needs and make clear, consensual requests: This is what I need. Are you available for that? If the answer is no, you can talk about what to do next. He recommends the book Polysecure as a helpful guide to structuring relationships and to having honest conversations about assumptions, even something like what "monogamy" means to each partner.

How do you ask for something you've never seen?

A good question: how can you ask for what you want if you've never been exposed to it? Mae Ling's advice is to be curious like a child. Ask questions, ask people to define their terms, talk to friends about things you know nothing about, and let go of the fear of judgment. If everyone is afraid to ask, everyone stays isolated. Ian adds that the internet can help but is also full of confusing information, and Mae Ling points out that your friends tend to be a mirror of where you already are, so growing may mean meeting different people and going to unfamiliar places.

When you try something new, don't write it off after one attempt, because the person, place or even your mood might be off. Mae Ling's rule is to try things three times before deciding.

Gratitude and positive reinforcement

Near the end, the conversation turns to gratitude. Ian shares that his family says what they're grateful for before every meal, even at a restaurant, and that it has led to far more thank-yous in everyday life. Mae Ling ends every session and every interaction with a gratitude practice, because our brains remember how something ended. She applies the same principle to training and coaching in general: she doesn't believe in punishment, because focusing on what went wrong keeps people stuck, while noticing what someone did well makes them more likely to repeat it. And it works on yourself, too.

What Mae Ling wants everyone to know

Ian closes with his usual question: if everyone on the planet were watching, what would you want them to know? Her answer: you can only receive as much love from others as the love you have for yourself. Everything around you, including who you surround yourself with, reflects back at you, and when you start to love yourself, she says, other people seem kinder, more caring and more supportive. "It really starts from within."

Find Mae Ling

Mae Ling shares most of her content on Instagram, with daily tips and short reels, and says her website links to everything else. You'll find the links in the description of the original episode.